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Monday, 10 January 2011

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Wow, this is good. I had some thoughts on this from a historical perspective (http://bit.ly/htZ0Q1), but this is better.

This is good, but the assertion that Palin's rhetoric is violent and Olbermann's isn't is entirely founded on the assumption that Palin's fans are violent and Olbermann's are not, and that seems to me as very close to begging the question, doesn't it?

I mean, I think you could also say that liberals are OK with violence against perceived wrong doers, since many of them support the use of police violence (though I don't and mI think you prolly don't either.) and so couldn't you argue that Olbermann's likening to two outlaw organizations against whom violence would be justified is the same thing? I'm not saying I believe that, just that I think when you have to draw such a fine line to distinguish the two modes of speech that maybe they aren't that different after all.

So yea, define violent rhetoric and contextualize specifically enough and it may hold up logically, but it still comes off to me as the pot calling the kettle a slidely different shade of black.

Otherwise, you're basically defending the assertion that the right has a monopoly on violent rhetoric, which seems dismissable out of hand.

@Matt: Thanks!

@NOT:

but the assertion that Palin's rhetoric is violent and Olbermann's isn't is entirely founded on the assumption that Palin's fans are violent and Olbermann's are not

Not really: they're defined as people more likely to favor an expansive interpretation of the Second Amendment, which doesn't necessarily make them more violent, just more prone to have their imaginations stoked by imagery related to guns.

you're basically defending the assertion that the right has a monopoly on violent rhetoric, which seems dismissable out of hand.

If that were the extent of violent rhetoric instead of an example of it, I'd agree ... but to reverse what I wrote, it makes sense that imagery of the sort Palin used wouldn't be nearly as effective on Olbermann's audience, no?

This is a fine definition, however the fact that it excludes the Clear and Present Danger Test is — in my frank opinion — inappropriate. Oliver Wendell Holmes was faced with this type of problem in 1919, in Schenck v. the United States. Another important Supreme Court case to consider in this imbroglio is 1969's Brandenburg v. Ohio. Although I'm no legal professional, it is my opinion that these rulings should inform us as to what "dangerous" speech happens to be — especially since they are what would really matter in this situation.

Naturally, the definition is subjective: the audience does, as you said, matter; also, the call to action matters: how clear is it? Stroking the imagination is one thing, but it is another thing, in my opinion, to speak in depth and at length about a given action. From the perspective of a layman, it seems like this could easily turn into a difficult case to prosecute — if it were brought against Sarah Palin. Hal Turner's case was a no brainer, but Palin's, if it were brought into court, would probably not be an easy conviction; it is very likely, depending on the court, that the case could even be thrown out. At least, this is a layman's interpretation of the decisions.

"The Court upheld the statute on the ground that, without more, "advocating" violent means to effect political and economic change involves such danger to the security of the State that the State may outlaw it. Cf. Fiske v. Kansas, 274 U.S. 380 (1927). But Whitney has been thoroughly discredited by later decisions. See Dennis v. United States, 341 U.S. 494, at 507 (1951). These later decisions have fashioned the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Hess v. Indiana.

Again, it seems that Turner's case is a no brainer — especially considering that he published information on the people he was threatening — but one brought against Palin would be a bit harder to prosecute. It will definitely, if it is brought to court, come down to the text on the picture: "Help us prescribe the solution." The trial will probably be highly politicized, and, like many things involving Sarah Palin, have a circus atmosphere peculiar to her. Does this inspire imminent lawless action? is the text a clear and present danger to the listed candidates? and is the call to action clear? are all questions which should be asked; but, it's more likely that none of them — the important questions, or their important answers — will make their way to the viewers ears in the emotionally charged fracas.

Presumably, one against Glenn Beck could be just as hard; although I haven't regularly watched his program since he switched to Fox News, so all bets are off.

Not really necessary for a second post, but sincerest apologies for the italics faux pas.

Unlike the audience of liberals and leftists, who oppose war

Let me stop you right there. Particular wars? Yes. War generally? No.

Second, the notion of an "expansive interpretation of the Second Amendment" is in no way necessarily aggressive. Indeed, the right which the Second Amendment is protecting is one of self-defense.

Also, since liberals favor a greater role for government in private life, by nature a coercive power, it seems just as likely that liberals would favor using force to achieve their political ends.

Fritz,

Liberals tend to use "coercive power" in government (and have done so historically) as a check on individual liberty when that liberty infringes on the rights of others - my "right" to discriminate against someone else. Conservatives are the ones who have shown that they use "coercive power" to limit individual freedom, even when that freedom effects no one else - the right to marry, etc.

And you're probably right that if we had laxer gun laws, with more people armed, things like the massacre in Tucson wouldn't have happened, right?

"It goes without saying that the majority of political rhetoric in America is, in this technical sense, pathetic. This is simply because most politicians have questionable ethos..."

That seems wrong to me. Isn't Sarah Palin's Alaska essentially about projecting ethos? Or consider the ethos of mavericks (mostly about ethos, though occasionally turned into a discussion of whether or not maverick-ness is appropriate for the office of the president). See also Obama's projection of ethos as cautious and fair-minded, possibly professorial--and the occasional attempts to show anger. All this is about ethos and the particular problems Obama faces in presenting ethos (can't be an angry black man, falling into elite educated thing, etc.). When Bush dressed up in a flight suit or said, "Bring it on"--that's ethos. Or when Clinton could feel your pain...

Ethos is pervasive in political discourse and, I would say, as important as pathos.

C'mon SEK, the left implies violence plenty. right wing sites have found examples of guns in Dem's TV ads. MoveOn made a plea from a future, militarized Olivia Wilde. I think Olberman's example is fairly violent. Giffords herself is now being passed around for her quote about owning a Glock and being a good shot in response to acts committed against her.

And back to the first part of your reply, there are a lot of pro-2nd Dems. The Glock quote, again, clearly shows that.

The "left" has engaged in violent acts and rhetoric a plenty in the past 60 years. I think it's time us true pacifists start acknowledging that it's pandemic to both sides, not endemic to the "others."

Using your own definition, Obama himself is constantly saying things with the intent to cause violence to an audience he knows will respond. He calls them "orders."

Liberals tend to use "coercive power" in government (and have done so historically) as a check on individual liberty when that liberty infringes on the rights of others - my "right" to discriminate against someone else. Conservatives are the ones who have shown that they use "coercive power" to limit individual freedom, even when that freedom effects no one else - the right to marry, etc.

That's the automatic first move, Matt, but it doesn't hold water. Suffice to say, the only people consistent on this point are Libertarians, Anarchists, and your various totalitarian philosophies.

Did you write this?

The majority of it quotes my post, but the citation is clear, so I don't have a problem with it. Why?

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