Did Douglas Wolk just call me a girl?

From Reading Comics (which I'm finally reading):

The surprising, and heartening, thing is that the pattern is actually changing—in part because the broader culture of creator-focused media fandom that has evolved over the last couple of decades has drawn young women into comics as a sort of side effect (if you watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer and listen to Tori Amos, there's a reasonable chance you read The Sandman and Transmetropolitan too).

In college I listened to Tori Amos's Little Earthquakes (1992) and Under the Pink (1994) while reading The Sandman (1989-1996) until Gaiman closed shop, at which point I took to reading Transmetropolitan (1997-2002) while listening to Tori Amos until Buffy (1997-2003) came on nevertheless I have no clue who that parenthetical aside is supposed to describe.

Comments

[Ahistoricality]

People who appreciate magical realism instead of hyper-escapism, I think. To put it another way, Frank Miller fans who moved from there to more complex works, instead of taking it as a "revitalization of the genre" (aka permission to go back to the same masked crusader crap with more profanity and blood).

I don't know either Tori Amos or Transmetropolitan well enough to be sure, though.

[todd.]

Did you wear an ankh necklace too?

[JPRS]

No, that was an eye-of-Horus ankle bracelet.

[tomemos]

What's particularly funny is that Transmet is balls-to-the-wall masculinist from beginning to end. It's like the Maxim Magazine of supposedly subversive comics.

[SEK]

People who appreciate magical realism instead of hyper-escapism, I think.

But the two groups overlapped, especially during the early years of Vertigo, where the only people who would've known about Sandman shopped at stores that bought direct. In other words, they would've already have to have been fans of spandex to even notice the existence of the independent stuff.

Did you wear an ankh necklace too?

No.

Yes.

What's particularly funny is that Transmet is balls-to-the-wall masculinist from beginning to end.

And yet, Wolk's got me --- if he's talking about males, not females, which I still can't tell --- pegged. That's the beauty of it, maybe.

[Ahistoricality]

But the two groups overlapped,

Of course they overlapped: they're genre literary categories, not state lines.

the only people who would've known about Sandman shopped at stores that bought direct...

Or were friends of people who did. Or friends of friends. Or SFF geeks who never read comic books but heard through the grapezine that it was good stuff.

He never said that you had to read the first editions that never had a chance to get dusty on a shelf.

[tomemos]

To be fair, early issues of Sandman included loads of DC references to make the transition easier (or because Gaiman didn't know what else to write). At the same time, Scott, there are plenty of comic stores all over the country which have done hefty trade in indies since the 1980s. It certainly would have been possible for there to be an early Sandman audience who weren't familiar with mainstream superhero comics except in the general sense of seeing the Wolverine cutouts in the comic store.

[JPool]

Are you wearing eye-liner?

[todd.]

Sandman seems like a special case to me, because these days it's possible to come to it from outside of comics as a fan of on eof the other 17 kinds of media Gaiman produces.

[john]

The Lady Feminine, he said with plausible deniability.

[Adam Roberts]

Why do we crucify ourselves, anyway?

[Mike Russo]

I think the point he's making is much simpler -- much of the fanbase of both Tori Amos and Buffy is made up of girls. But they both act as somewhat of gateway drugs to the dorkier things out there. Buffy is basically a superhero comic in TV form, Tori Amos' songs have direct nods to Neil Gaiman and Sandman. And, socially speaking, if you are a girl who likes Tori and Buffy, and you meet boys who also likes Tori and Buffy, there's probably a good chance they also likes Sandman and Transmet and would be happy to push them on you.

At least, I saw this happen a fair bit in undergrad, though the details were a bit different (I liked Tori but came late to Buffy, frex. And am a boy, obv., for whatever that's worth)

[Jen Pierce]

Russo up there nailed it. I was a Tori fan--and almost all of my boyfriends read Sandman and that's how I got into it. I didn't get to Buffy until very recently, however, but I suppose I was well-primed.

Did you also smoke hand rolled Drum and talk about the co-opting of the indie markets? Cuz, um , maybe you were hanging out in my apartment and I just don't remember...

And--forgive me--hyper-escapism vs. magical realism. Are people really making that distinction? Really?

[Ahistoricality]

hyper-escapism vs. magical realism. Are people really making that distinction?

"People? I ain't people."

I made that distinction, I made it once, and everyone seems to have understood exactly what I meant. What's your problem?

[SEK]

Are you wearing eye-liner?

COOKIE MAN!

To be fair, early issues of Sandman included loads of DC references to make the transition easier (or because Gaiman didn't know what else to write).

You know, it's moments like this where I realize how different life was before the Internet. I had a few really intense conversations with an older comic book reader who insisted Cain and Abel had a long and storied history in the DC tradition, but as he was unable to provide evidence of this, I didn't believe him. Now, I would've just gone to Wikipedia and learned how very, very wrong I was.

At the same time, Scott, there are plenty of comic stores all over the country which have done hefty trade in indies since the 1980s. It certainly would have been possible for there to be an early Sandman audience who weren't familiar with mainstream superhero comics except in the general sense of seeing the Wolverine cutouts in the comic store.

I suppose that's part of what confused me -- whether he was talking about males or females -- because if he's talking about females, he can't mean that they were turned onto comics via Sandman if they were already were already reading Sandman.

[M]uch of the fanbase of both Tori Amos and Buffy is made up of girls. But they both act as somewhat of gateway drugs to the dorkier things out there. Buffy is basically a superhero comic in TV form, Tori Amos' songs have direct nods to Neil Gaiman and Sandman.

Now this makes sense. Again, I never thought Wolk was wrong -- obviously, I fit his profile perfectly -- I just couldn't tell who was doing what to whom, if you will.

Did you also smoke hand rolled Drum and talk about the co-opting of the indie markets? Cuz, um , maybe you were hanging out in my apartment and I just don't remember...

I never did drugs (he says, and really and truly and seriously not just because his mother reads his blog) so I don't even know what you're talking about. Hey, I see you asked another question! I should answer that:

And--forgive me--hyper-escapism vs. magical realism. Are people really making that distinction?

I would. To talk about types again, I don't think the "I love Superman!" crowd has much overlap with the "Garcia-Marquez is the best author ever!" crowd. I think you're right to say that they structure the relation of the fictional world to ours in a similar fashion (with Earth 1 being the magically realist version of our Earth Prime, &c.), but I can think of a couple of Comp. Lit. students who would be positively offended if you even thought about thinking they would be read Superman comics.

[j.s. nelson]

Cigarettes, SEK, cigarettes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_(tobacco)

[Ahistoricality]

Nicotine's not a drug?

[Jen Pierce]

Sorry, buddy, no problem here. Just meant by "people"--meaning is this a critical distinction or one you were inventing?

Yes, Drum is tobacco for people who thought it was somehow I don't know more pretentiou---I mean PURE. LOL. And nicotine, drug? Mmm. Yeah. Casein in cheese and sodium also have mood altering properties so think VERY carefully before having another powdered cheese snack. ;)

If it's (hyper-escapism vs. magical realism) something that was referenced in a previous conversation and generally accepted, my apologies for rudely butting in. But on the face of it, and not to put too fine a point on it (say, I'm the only bee in your bonnet) but its a distinction without a difference. If there is an overall project referenced here to make comic books and graphic novels a valid object of critical theory (of which, me: heck YEAH they should be) this seems to be a distinction that should be dismantled. I mean Le Morte d'Arthur vs. Buffy or Superman---mmm, really, is there a diff outside of cultural cache? And the "hyper" of hyper-escapism implies that the escapism is taken to a disdain inspiring extreme, where "magical realism" is just an appreciation of the fantastic with more aesthetic savoir faire.

But yes, in terms of social groups, I see the distinction--the terms used to describe those groups I don't think are valid? It seems loaded with a bit of baggage I don't buy into. But okay. I see your meaning.

[Ahistoricality]

this seems to be a distinction that should be dismantled.

I'm going to put a lot of energy into defending something I made up on the spot -- it's a common failing of us online types -- but I disagree. You're conflating medium with genre, product with art.

[SEK]

Cigarettes, SEK, cigarettes.

Vindicated by my own ignorance. Ha!

not to put too fine a point on it (say, I'm the only bee in your bonnet)

NEEEEEEEERD! (And if you point out that I got it and what that says about me, it'll be detention for you.)

But yes, in terms of social groups, I see the distinction--the terms used to describe those groups I don't think are valid? It seems loaded with a bit of baggage I don't buy into.

I do think the distinction's structurally problematic, given the similarities you describe, but there's one other aspect to it: most of the early magic realists were Mexican or South American writers: Julio Cortázar, Gabriel García Márquez, &c. As Gene Wolfe famously said, "Magic realism is fantasy written by people who speak Spanish." But even though he's being dismissive, there's something to that: the geographic distribution of early magic realist texts is meaningful, because they're not coming from the tradition of science fictional and fantastical literature like, say, someone like John Crowley or Charles de Lint.